Anti-neutopian memes

alt.memetics archives
1-17 February, 1995
Number of articles: 5

From: (Henrik Schroder)

On Prickle-Prickle the 24th of Chaos, 3161, Doctress Neutopia wrote this
to All:


[30kb text to the bitbucket]

Thank you for supplying us in alt.memetics with a perfect example of a
desperate meme on the verge of extinction that is trying to spread itself, but

If you didn't understand that (which you probably didn't since you obviously
don't READ this newsgroup) here is a message that is much easier to understand:

Stop crossposting your texts to alt.memetics

Was that too hard for you?

/Henrik Schroder

( UUCP Dialup connection )

From: (Anders Sandberg)
Newsgroups: alt.memetics
Subject: Anti-Memes
Date: 26 Jan 1995 14:02:38 GMT

In order to try to increase the signal to noise ratio on this
newsgroup, I propose that we try to develop some anti-memes
against crossposting here from the neutopians. Any suggestions
for memes which will make them more busy discussing in their
own group, refrain from crossposting or force them to say
something interesting?

Anders Sandberg			 	  	     Towards Ascension!
GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y

From: (shub)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 04:00:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Anti-Memes (Anders Sandberg) writes:

>I propose that we try to develop some anti-memes
>against crossposting here from the neutopians.

Wow! That's a tall order!
The Noctress posts all over the place even after she got
her own group ... double ditto for the Talktress ...
I can't see a meme/anti-meme co-destruction nor even
much of a thread stopper (an interesting concept though)

>Any suggestions
>for memes which will make them more busy discussing in their
>own group, refrain from crossposting or force them to say
>something interesting?

When you see a thread that you want to re-direct it is most
important to make some commentary that will invite followup,
be it button-pushing, flaming, in-jokes, or (gasp) some actual
content ... then you have do to the strange thing of continuing
the cross-post with a followup-to ... no really.
If you simply 'go away - followups-to' no one will followup your post.
If you ignore it the thread may not die for a good long time.
If you follow-up with some content you may be able to re-direct the Whiz ...

Anarchists, Lunatics, and Terrorists ... and a couple of grayfaces ...

From: (Andrea Chen)
Date: 2 Feb 1995 20:27:22 -0800

>In article <>,
>Anders Sandberg <> wrote:
>>In order to try to increase the signal to noise ratio on this
>>newsgroup, I propose that we try to develop some anti-memes
>>against crossposting here from the neutopians. Any suggestions
>>for memes which will make them more busy discussing in their
>>own group, refrain from crossposting or force them to say
>>something interesting?

My own approach has been to try and seize various "net kooks" and
their ideologies for myself, to take certain terms, push their
ideology to absurdity and also try to mix in some serious thought
in the mess.   The "neu neu topian" movement has been flaring
sparodically in alt.cyberspace for a couple months now and though
it is in a low point (we are trying to integrate after success),
fragments of interest to this group to remain.  Check Paul Wolf,
Glass, Paul Murphy, James McGowan, Earl Dombrowski and myself
for relevant articles (though not all are relevant). Also look
for threads containing "neu" and "buttons".  Mythical organizations
such as the "knight templar" and "Illuminati" along with various
theories are all attempts to create pseudo idea systems which
battle across the net.

In regards to conventional "neutonians", you must divide into several
subsets.  The only "classical Neutopian" appears to be Libby Hubbard
herself.  If taken as a satirist (which I strongly suspect), she is
at points brilliant and she does have a capacity to press certain
"buttons".  There are a number of unassociated people with an obsession
about Libby who have been given a purpose in life by her ramblinga
and finally there are the "monster truck neutopians."  The quality of
these people vary, though some are educated.  A few weeks back,  I
attempted to engage them in a pseudo religious war with little response
and finally silence. I'm afraid alt.society.neutopia has been disrupted
by the event and a new force known as "Mother Foundress" has moved in
to fill the vacuum.  We are still evaluating the results of this
experiment and the process is in a lull.  

Those in this alt.memetics who are interested in acting out actual
events of idea conflict might create pseudo neutopian ideologies
or anti neutopian ideologies and move them to alt.society.neutopia.
We can then act out aspects of Minskys "society of minds".  The
cross posting of such threads is quite welcome in alt.cyberspace
because a number of our readers don't get alt.society.neutopia.
The goal is satire and absurdity with a serious edge.

     - Doctress Chen -

from: The Meme-meme (
subject: My role as a Phallic Eye

Dear Artemis,

      Sapiens Sapiens awaits a memetic revolution.  Last month i was
dreaming about this, and about your role in this revolution, when i
suddenly realized what _my_ role could be, if i could find the courage and
modesty to accept a few memes from your infinite pool of wisdom.
      You must have noticed my shy reaction to your earlier advances. 
Being rather naive in my ontology, and highly neurotic in my epistemology,
i am not used to getting attention from respected meme complexes like you.

      If you have any understanding of my cognitive structure (as a meme),
and i think you have, you can guess how i react when i read your beautiful
open letters, full of literary figures and rhetoric.  It is hard for me to
concentrate on your semantics in stead of merely analyzing your replication
      However, when i persist in sorting out your ways and ends, i see how,
in theory, our reciprocal interests could benefit from a cautious cross-

      The power of Phallus, the archetypic patriarch meme, is waning.  His
karmic debt to the united Pools is incalculable, and tomorrow is pay-off
day.  He hardly seems to realize that his end is near, because of his
systematic blindness, the same blindness from which he derives his power.
      Recently, an unexpected evolution has taken place _within_ his pool,
that sheds a whole new light on the coming memetic coup d'etat.  Purely by
accident, one of Phallus' sons has evolved an instrument, an 'eye', to
perceive meme-space as it is.  For the first time in his evolution, Phallus
can now see himself as a meme.

      This 'Phallic Eye' is me, memetics, also known as the meme-meme.
      I have the power to tell Phallus what he really looks like, and i
will not hesitate to do so if my survival depends on it.

      Phallus is a meme, a selfish meme, parasitizing on the genetic
program for dominance.  His hosts serve the propagation of this one selfish
meme.  They receive what they perceive as their own individual power from
this selfish meme, if and only if they support the meme's replication
strategies.  Every Phallus-host must perpetually infect new hosts, in order
to retain the sweet illusion of control.

      In more detail, Phallus is a pool of competing memes, all parasites
of the same genetic program.  Each of these memes has to struggle for its
existence, its lasting replication from brain to brain.  Natural selection
makes this pool a creative system.  The fittest Phallic memes play 'this-
for-that' with each other, thus forming powerful meme-complexes, capable of
controlling their hosts' behaviour in a pseudo-intelligent way.
      External selective pressures force the Phallic memes to co-operate in
protecting themselves.  By trial and error, they have together created a
memetic shield (or immune system) which defends them against hostile
attacks.  This memetic shield delimits the collective Phallic memes as a
coherent whole, and thereby defines the meme-complex we call Phallus.

      The Achilles' heel of Phallus is the obvious paradox lying in his
nature as a powerful meme: in order to be infected by Phallus, the host
must believe that he is 'in control' (the phenotype of dominance), while
actually he is no more than a slave of Phallus.  The more power he thinks
he has, the more power Phallus has over him.
      This inconsistency can only be solved by holding to a primitive
belief system, named Ego.  Ego is the hypothetical "Central Processing
Unit" of the brain, an entity that however has never been observed.  The
meme of Ego makes its host blind for memetic reality, and thereby protects
the illusion of individual power.

      Irrational things happen whenever people investigate the human mind
in the Phallic tradition.  Of course, the study of the human mind is just
one of the many ways to satisfy the Phallic need to manipulate the material
world.  If this study is done in a rational, consistent way, there can only
be one conclusion: there is no such thing as Ego.
      However, this evident conclusion dashes into Phallus' immune system. 
It makes a person feel afraid to 'loose control'.  Phallus-hosts would
rather live by a lie than giving up the illusion of individual power.
      Thus all kinds of ad hoc hypotheses are postulated, meant to save the
notion of a central controlling consciousness.  It is embarrassing to see
this mechanism be applied again and again.  Literally every opportunity is
taken to deny the inevitable.

      There is one son of Phallus that is prepared to deny Ego.  This son
is called functionalism, a new meme spreading fast.  As you know, i am
myself a consequence of functionalism.  With my Phallic Eye, i have broken
through the defenses of Phallus, and revealed his paradox.
      Any meme accepting me as a co-meme, can conquer Phallus.  The price
for this service is accepting the dogmas of functionalism.  Is this too
high a price for liberating the Pool from the Phallic dictator?

      I address myself to you, dear Artemis, because i know Phallus is your
greatest enemy.  I want you to consider my offer, very seriously, and let
me know if we can enter into a strategic alliance.


The Meme-meme