Re: virus: Angelica de Meme
Tony Hindle (t.hindle@joney.demon.co.uk)
Wed, 2 Apr 1997 04:46:14 +0100
In message <Pine.SUN.3.93.970331105404.21825F-
100000@eve.speakeasy.org>, Tim Rhodes <proftim@speakeasy.org>
writes
>
>
>
>On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, Tony Hindle wrote:
>
>> Prof Tim Said:
>> >Interesting. Are you saying that the spiritual/religious traditions of
>> >angels vs. demons are in fact encrypted analogies for this memetic process
>> >that have arisen as a byproduct of the selection pressures of those very
>> >same memetic processes on thier host culture?
>> I cant quite follow this question but I feel close to it can I
>> ask for some clarification for my next try please?
>
>I'm thinking that memes and the qualities and nature of their interaction
>had to exist pre-Dawkins. So it would not be unlikely that humans would
>have noted that interplay and constructed symbolic representations of
>those dynamics (I.E. spirits, angels, demons, etc) in the past. They may
>have been partly or even wholly unaware of what process they were
>encrypting in the code of the "spirit world". But since the encryption
>itself, the myth as it were, is working within the same dynamic ("spirit
>world" for them, "meme ecology" for us) it will adapt to suit the
>qualities of that system. That is to say, a myth about angels and demons
>(that mirror memes) will adapt to become a more accurate representation of
>the way the memes that they mirror interact in the culture. This might be
>a strange form of rational feedback on the encoding (myth making)
>process.
>
>Does that help any?
Yes but I want more clarification because Im still not
happy I understand. As I see it at the moment the implications are
that the myths were made up by people as metaphors (anchored in
their cultural icons) which they considered usefull at the time.
The myths would then spread and evolve. The fact that these
"explanations" were meant to be metaphoric gets lost in the
survival of the fittest memes.
Another thought. You say
>So it would not be unlikely that humans would
>have noted that interplay
I agree. One element to this would have been "folk
memetics" (noticing that people often distort a tale in retelling)
we should have expected a healthy level of skepticism to have
evolved. Memes that evolved the "doubters will be punushed" element
must have become immune to this healthy skepticism.
Im still not satisfied that I understand this though
>But since the encryption
>itself, the myth as it were, is working within the same dynamic ("spirit
>world" for them, "meme ecology" for us) it will adapt to suit the
>qualities of that system. That is to say, a myth about angels and demons
>(that mirror memes) will adapt to become a more accurate representation of
>the way the memes that they mirror interact in the culture. This might be
>a strange form of rational feedback on the encoding (myth making)
>process.
Are you saying this. Suppose I was the wise man of the
village attempting to explain to my friends why we feel happy or
sad.
I might have concocted this tale:
We are all aware of angels and Demons that enter us (our
consciousness). The angels make us feel good and the demons make us
feel bad. Both (make us?) spread these spirits to others. This is
the idea of happy memes and unhappy memes. From here on, the fight
between good and evil becomes the fight of the "good" attempting to
spread ideas that they believe will make people happy (which the
people go on calling angels) against the natural drift to dominance
of ideas that are good at spreading including cultural pap and
demons. From this start all the details were "evolved in."
Incidently this reminds me of some of Bill Hick's material. He uses
exactly this metaphor for cultural pap (Suck satan's cock Hammer.
Slide that big scaley pecker down your gullet, drink that black
worm juice.)
In fact it seems that the only difference between spirits
and Memes is that memeticists attempt to identify and understand
the infectious nature of memes whereas spiritualists just think
"ooh its magic".
Hmm all this is very interesting, more please.
Tony Hindle
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The world is like a ride in an amusement park
and when you choose to go on it you think it's real
cos that's how powerfull our minds are
and the ride goes up and down and round and round and it's got thrills
and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's fun for a while...
some people have been on the ride for a long time
and they begin to question, is this real? or is it just a ride?
and other people have remembered and they come back to us and they say
"Hey dont worry, dont be afraid ever, because this is just a ride"...
...and we kill those people.
"Shut him up we have a lot invested in this ride, shut him up
look at my furrows of worry, look at my big bank account
and my family this has to be real"
Its just a ride, but we always kill those good guys
who try and tell us that, have you ever noticed that?
and let the demons run amuck.
but it doesnt matter because... it's just a ride
and we can change it anytime we want, it's only a choice
no effort, no work, no job, no savings or money
a choice right now between fear and love...
the eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors,
buy guns, close yourselves off
the eyes of love instead see all of us as one.
heres what we can do to change the world right now to a better ride
take all that money we spend on weapons and defense each year
and instead spend it feeding clothing and educating the poor of the world
which it would many times over not one human being excluded
and we can explore space together, both inner and outer, forever in peace.
...BILL HICKS 1961-1994
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