[vicious snip]
Ok now that we have gone over the kitten again, I see that we are in =
(partial?) agreement on
this subjective/objective thing. The bounty between what is self and not =
self is fuzzy and artificial.
When I clip my nails or get my hair cut, do I loose part of myself? If =
when driving and feel the
slipperiness of the road, has not my senses moved out to the point of =
contact between the
tires and the road? (In becoming "one" with the car did I gain 2 tones =
of weight? :( )
[snip my hologram example]
>> For now, it is worth considering just how useful having
>> an image of "self" is to an organism's survival.
Eric:
> Damn useful, I'd say. That's why it's "hard-wired" (yes, I'm saying
> that the illusion of self is actually in our gene's, not our meme's.=20
> But you can't sue me because I don't really exist! ha!)
I Agree, the illusion of self is hard wired. I am saddened to learn of =
your
non existence. You seem to be such a thoughtful fellow.
=20
> Compare your holograms to this painting:
> In front of a window, viewed from inside a room, I placed a=20
> painting which depicts precisely that section of the landscape=20
> obstructed by the painting: that is, the tree of the painting=20
> concealed the tree located behind it outside the room. In the mind=20
> of the viewer, the tree exists both within the room, i.e., in the=20
> painting, as well as outside in the real landscape . And that is how
> we see the world: we see it as something located outside of us=20
> despite the fact that what we see is only a mental representation=20
> of that which we experience within us. - Rene Magritte=20
[snip john's stuff on subjectivism]
Let me restate the point I was trying to make with paintings instead of =
holograms.
It is very difficult to perceive the image in the painting by studying =
the composition of
the pigments. To perceive the image you must shift to a higher level of =
abstraction.=20
I wasn't trying to say anything profound. I was just pointing out that =
the "illusion of
self" can disappear the same way a forest disappears when you perceive =
the
trees.=20
=20
Rene Magritte is treading very close to a fallacy. By likening our =
model of the world to a painting he is allowing us to presume there is =
someone there to view it. Does this little=20
person inside our head also have a even smaller painting inside his =
head? How do we
get away from this infinite recursion? =20
The best way to get off this treadmill is to never get on in the first =
place. Our model of the world is a part of the "illusion of self". You =
can't see the model without shifting to a lower level of abstraction =
where the "illusion of self" is hard to see. There is /Not/ a 1:1 =
mapping
of the "out there" to the model inside, as John correctly points out. =
There is not such thing
as "True Perception". The model is always an imperfect fabrication. =
(Let me point
out that some models work better than others and in that sense are =
superior.)
Additionally we should expect the model inside to be very different from =
the world "out there". A rock and our internal model of a rock has a =
very different property. The
Rock "out there" plays no part in thinking. The internal model of the =
rock does. =20
-Alan "fearless functionalist" Ferguson.
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