>No. A model can be made. It's just that said model will possibly be
>just our minds impossing order on a chaotic (_un_ordered) universe,
>rather than us actually figuring out the "true structure" of the
>universe.
Doesn't every living organism provide an existence proof for
order in the universe? Unless you have a literal interpretation
of the Bible you have to admit these highly complex configurations
of matter and energy were around a long time before humans started
imposing order on the world.
>For science, this is where your circluar validity comes in. The fact
>that we not only have a model but that the model can be used to _affect_
>the universe in useful ways means that possibly we _are_ onto something
>here.
Just "possibly"? How about "so certain that you bet your life on
it every day and I'm not exaggerating"?
>> You have to accept that your senses are somehow influenced by
>> reality. It is not the same thing, and it isn't faith.
>
>At the start it _is_. Now it's not, because we have evidence that
>indeed what we sense is _out_there_ and can be modelled and controlled
>by us.
What start?
>No, I'm saying that when they _lose_their_faith_, a void is created and,
>at least as it stands, reason itelf is not enough to fill the hole.
>Rather than face this, some people might jump...
Not if they are actually reasonable.
>Of course, this can be avoided if we can fill that hole... and this is
>the reason behind CoV and Zero, right?
I can't speak for Zero, but the CoV was created in part to provide an
alternative for that memetic niche. It is supposed to be an extension
of reason and science that caters to those human needs that the traditional
religions currently fulfill. One definition of 'religion' that I find
particularly illuminating is 'an institution whose purpose is to provide
meaning to the lives of its adherents'.
-- David McFadzean david@lucifer.com Memetic Engineer http://www.lucifer.com/~david/ Church of Virus http://www.lucifer.com/virus/